Leonid Sirotin: people pay for the buzz

The AppInTop podcast interviewed Leonid Sirotin. We publish the printed version of the conversation with the kind permission of the podcast on App2Top.ru .

Hi!  How can I introduce you? Are you an expert in the gaming industry, or how do you position yourself now?

Hello. Usually, when they take any interviews,” the former general producer of the Game Insight company writes, “it’s kind of loud to be called an expert in the gaming industry. I’m a developer, producer, game designer, just a good person.

I have the first question. We have three markets – mobile games, social games, PC. What do you think is the probability of shooting a novice developer in the future? In the next couple of years, what will happen to these markets? What are the chances? Where is the probability of success higher?

The mobile market looks, of course, the most attractive, because it is currently the hottest.

The social market is in a kind of stagnation, and the PC has long matured.

But we must understand that the heat of the market (even overheating) means that its advantages are, to some extent, virtual.

This is the Klondike, where all possible prospectors have already arrived. There’s no more gold lying around in chunks under your feet.

If you play the role of an expert analyst, then the chances of shooting are higher by sorting these markets by priority: mobile, social and PC.

Then there is a separate question about the mobile market, how do you assess it now, what state it is in, where it is moving and are there any other free windows here?

I would call this stage maturity. The market, of course, is not the same as it was a few years ago, there is much less organic matter in it. And to be honest, it’s frankly not enough.

Traffic has become expensive. The CPI price for the installation has increased significantly, primarily because very large companies are sitting in the tops: Supersell is sitting there, King is sitting there, the Japanese are sitting there, who are buying traffic at very high prices, and, accordingly, the total price is rising.

Revenues, respectively, are falling because the price of attracting a user is high, and you can squeeze a certain limit out of it, you can’t endlessly increase it.

Traditionally, this market has not been as profitable from the point of view of ARPPU, as, for example, the market of hardcore MMO. ARPPU for $ 30-40 is such a very big rarity in the mobile market.

Another thing that is important to understand in this market is that it is a platform market.

This is a market created by Apple, Google, and Amazon platforms. And these platforms were not originally game-centered, and I would not say that they were turned to the developer.

They were rotated by different parts of the body. Now there is a tendency for a face reversal, some kind of dialogue, the appearance of editorial commands, as on Steam.

On the other hand, I rate it as insufficient movement. A long way has already been passed, an ecosystem has already developed, a tradition has developed as a developer interacts with these platforms. I’m afraid they are late in many ways, and in many ways they are still doing the wrong thing.

And what are they missing? What would you add if you sat inside Apple and looked at this whole kitchen and could influence it? And what are you missing as a developer?

There is such a very subtle moment here, because I can’t sit inside Apple.

It is not initially game-centered, there are no people deep from the industry who sit on the other side and understand its needs. They initially have the whole policy, I can’t say that it is wrong…

From the point of view of Apple’s business, they are doing everything right. They consider, for example, applications, they even have an internal terminology such that applications are just a position, their App Store is a big showcase, like in a supermarket. And their task is to correctly make the layout on this showcase. They are mainly based on the parameters of user engagement, they may not look at profitability.

So it turns out that in many ways they look differently than the developer.

And their preferences are such a black box: it is unclear how they give preference to this or that application. It’s completely different how, for example, Steam does it. The recommendation system is also missing there in the form in which it is on Steam.

I’m putting Steam here as a counterexample, since Steam… he comes very much from the games. Of course, it is also not perfect if it is considered as a platform.

We must go the way Facebook tried to go and, in part, maybe even succeeded somewhere, although there are also questions. We need to start interacting very closely with developers, namely with game developers, we need a dialogue, we need to collect requirements, wishes and requests from them. We need to pay a lot of attention to the layer of small developers.

It is clear that there are giants, giants will always buy a lot of advertising, giants will see.

But the market does not live only by giants. Recharge is very important. Even for the giants themselves, it is important to suck in people, frames from below.

It’s huge, it’s such a big topic, I’m seriously afraid to touch on it in such a large volume, because nothing, no matter how I predict or build fantasies there, as it should be, will change.

In terms of platforms like consoles and PCs, smartphones/tablets are not a gaming platform. Yes, games for them are a good and big business, but now it works according to completely different laws.

Everything I’m saying now doesn’t mean that a small team can’t make money there, good money. I believe that small teams have high chances for another couple of years. With the big ones, everything is clear, they have an established business. Who is difficult, so it’s average.

The average teams have already high crutches. The probability of success is the same as the rest, and it is expensive for them to buy traffic. In turn, their teams are bloated and if they don’t consistently release hits, then they are doomed. The margin of safety is very low if they sit only on mobile phones.

Got you, interesting answer. Next question. You spoke at the beginning about expertise, I have accumulated expertise, for example, in social networks, I am a developer. I understand that this market is stagnating, I need to get out of here urgently and retrain. I’m retraining, for example, on the same mobile. If I enter the mobile market, what are its differences from PCs and social networks, what is the specific feature of platforms, what should I change in myself in order to accumulate this expertise here?

First of all, I would warn you to get out. If you have accumulated expertise in social networks, despite the stagnation of the market, you will be able to earn there.

To diversify, as it is fashionable to say, is the right way if you have resources, money. For example, to offload yourself, as we did in Game Insight. So many do now.

That is, there was a successful social direction, let’s get mobile from it – this is the normal way. It has its own risks and problems, because this leads to an increase in the cost of the entire production, the emergence of new development cycles.

What are the differences between the platforms? This is also a big topic, you can drown.

Mobiles are a different player. This must be understood. He is closer to a social player than to a PC player, but he is still different, he has a different timing. Mobile games, I like to joke, these are games for playing in the toilet. The cycle is very low, a person came in, played for 3-4-5 minutes, went out, ran somewhere further, sat down in a restaurant while waiting for an order, also pressed. Under this timing, it is very important to be puzzled.

In social networks, the timing is longer, this is when compared with the average social network.

Monetization in social networks is also a little different. Social networks are also different for social networks, but the pressure is shifted from the beginning of the game, that is, people are still allowed to breathe, go in, settle in the game and then start pulling money out of them.

In mobile games, the cycle is fast, there are a lot of games themselves, so a huge number of products are trying to squeeze money usually closer to the beginning.

This rule again does not apply to all games, you can’t pull everything everywhere.

Interfaces, of course, are the biggest story in terms of development, the screen is arranged in a completely different way, the size of the screen, the size of the elements.

There is a famous rule, an empirical rule of thumb: any element of the interface should be sharpened by pressing a finger, not much less and not much more.

There are many different devices – today even within iOS. And you need to sharpen the interface for each one.

Many people do not understand that huge profitability, often the main one, lies in smartphone applications. Some will come up with a big, beautiful game, stick it into tablets, and then remain without a large market, without devices with smaller screens. They do not understand that it is necessary to re-sharpen, to redo the interface. This is such a very rough, quick comparison. But, in principle, the games are quite portable from social networks to mobile phones with a little dotachivaniem.

The next question is about publishers. I am now witnessing such a boom in the environment when we have developers practically running around like startups for investors, hoping to get, get under the wing of the publisher. I am interested in your opinion on this matter. At what stage do I need to look for a publisher, what can I ask from him in general besides traffic?

It seems to me that everything has become exactly the opposite. That is, at the time of, for example, casual games – even before social games – there was a strong race, there it was generally the market of publishers.

Later, this started to change. We have also observed this process on PC, when small publishers were dying out, everything was consolidated around large companies. And I don’t think there’s a race going on right now, to be honest.

Firstly, there is an opinion, it is largely erroneous, but there is (dominant among indie developers). The opinion is the following: the entry threshold has become lower, you can easily enter the mobile market, the publisher is not particularly needed.

As a result, people are turning to them less and less.

If we still talk about why a publisher is needed, then it is important to understand that no two publishers are the same: someone has pure traffic, someone has a fairly experienced team that will help produce, this is such a capacious term, but somehow it will help improve the game.

It is also important to understand here that the publisher is always on his side, that is, he will never be on the developer’s side. For him, a developer is a small element in his business.

Developers also really understand this, and that’s also why there is a departure from publishers.

When an appeal to the publisher is inevitable, it is when nothing else can be done to the developer, when he has run out of his money and he hopes that the publisher will advance the development, and this is already a disappearing rare phenomenon in our world, it can be said to have died out.

The second case of contacting the publisher is more logical and common: this is when a developer goes to a closed market, for example, to China, Japan. His chances of doing something in this market are small, because there are a lot of local nuances, there is a need for local technical support and user support, there is no premium task to purchase traffic.

Again, unfortunately for the developer, he loses a fair amount of income at this point, but he may not have another chance.

And does he lose his expertise at the same time? That is, at someone else’s expense, using someone else’s experience, he gets into the same tops and does not understand why he succeeded or failed?

I would like to put such a tick here: when the developer himself got out somewhere, he also does not always understand how it happened. And in general, success in the market is largely dictated by accidents. In addition, there is no such publisher, based on experience, I can say that he is so expert that he will do everything for you, and you suddenly sit in the tops all showered with gold. No. You will have to work a lot yourself, you will have to work and push a lot, and it is unlikely that any loss will occur there, except for money. We, as developers, lose, sacrifice, first of all, money.

The next question is about the notorious cloning. Now many developers are trying to clone the best market players, but few people succeed. Why? And are there any correct cloning techniques, is it necessary to do it at all?

Cloning, I’ve been saying this for years, is definitely necessary. Sometime it is necessary to clone the whole product, sometime it is possible and necessary to clone some elements of another product. This is necessary due to the fact that we live in an era when almost everything has been invented.

It is clear that there are geniuses, that there are people with ambitions to do something completely new, but even they rely on something. This must be understood. Why is it not enough for anyone? So games are generally difficult to do. The fact is that if we look and decompose: here people came out with new products and here people came out to clone. We will see that both there and there the percentage of successes and failures will be approximately the same. There is no panacea in cloning, there is no particular harm, everything very much depends on the developer how he thinks.

What is cloning right?

This is not a blind action, this is reverse engineering. You need to play very deeply into the source product. It’s very stupid to look at tops and say: let’s make the same thing.

No.

It is necessary to play, preferably, to love the game, to understand why it was done.

A lot of things are not obvious from the outside until you dig deep: why is it done this way, why is the button here, and why does the product cost so much money, and why does such an event happen at such a minute of the game.

This is exactly the process of reverse engineering, when the developer is very deeply disassembling, disassembling, disassembling.

Why were pirates successful among social workers at one time? They are masters of reverse engineering: they just parsed, they took a flash drive, disassembled the entire product, launched it initially in the same form as its creator had it, there at Zynga, for example, and then they already screwed it up and at some stage they got their own game, modified.

In general, there are widely known cases in times of great wars when enemy equipment is captured and dismantled.

It is necessary to act in this way: to disassemble everything that you can reach, look at, understand and either reproduce or change. To change, you need to think a little better, you need to improve the original product, you always need to improve.

I have a question about trends: what will dominate in a few years in your opinion? Our interests are changing now, development takes a year or more, and, accordingly, how to get into the bullseye? Is the same reverse engineering or some kind of guessing, prediction, foresight possible here? What do you think?

The answer, if I could give it, would be worth billions of dollars.

There is no unambiguous recipe for hitting the target of that bullseye. There is always a guessing game, which consists of some percentage of luck (the more of it, the more likely it is to guess) and expertise.

The products that now dominate the tops, there is luck there, there is huge marketing, and there are very experienced people who have been in business for many years. They looked at what could be bowed, and bowed. I’m not saying that they did their own thing, because products with innovative ideas are not dominating in the top right now.

There is a moment of guile in your question, Anar. You say that development now takes from a year or more, and we have trends for several years, interests change.

If we were discussing the development of a large MMO, for example, then yes, there is a long development, but there is also a rather low dynamics of changing user preferences in comparison with the market, for example, with mobile: inertia is large, the basic mechanics have settled down. From year to year they do not change globally, shifts occur, but small.

And when we make a mobile phone or a social network, the deadlines are lower there and, in principle, our chances of starting development and getting into the relatively current trend are quite high.

Returning to the clone boom: many who made clones of Clash of Clans, one way or another, snatched their piece, because the interest was still fresh.

There is still a chance to guess who sits down to do, looking at the tops now, meditating on them, looking at what rises, what pops up.

And what tactics are there besides looking at the tops? Look at games from the past, add an HD tag there, lick, roll out? Rights to buy?  What other tactics are there to hit the bullseye with a high probability?

This is the first time I’ve heard about HD right now.

It means that I cut out some kind of HOMM or X-COM clone. Bought a license. And I release my games under the legendary brand. So Wargaming is now making a new Master of Orion.

Rather, it is the realization of a certain dream of those who make a decision in Wargaming. In general, here it is necessary to understand how the decision is made. People often create a trend by making such decisions, then everyone says that they guessed right, or they just spit on trends, saying “we will do what we want, we have enough money and we are not afraid to lose it.”

Taking old games is a good topic, there is already an established long–term community around them, which can give traffic or just saturate the game with itself. Plus, mechanics that have been tested for decades are good.

It’s just that a developer, if he sits down to guess trends in its purest form, he is not honest with himself, he wants to do something, his soul must lie for something, I was just talking about this at the DevGAMM conference.

No matter how much you guess, but you want something, if you do not do what you want, the product will not be good enough. You will always look away.

It’s like, if you take an example not from the mobile market, League of Legends. This is a team that sincerely wanted and loved DOTA. It was not a product of their dreams, they dreamed of something else, but they deeply understood what DOTA was, they enjoyed doing it, getting high, playing it – obsessed, everyone who didn’t want to play it fell off. And so they got the No. 1 product in the world. This is about free-to-play.

It’s the same here.

The developer can tell fortunes on trends, somehow fix it for himself. Now there is an obvious trend in the mobile market – travian-lite games with asynchronous gameplay. This is a trend, then we need to look back, and what was in this trend? Master of Orion falls on such mechanics? So let’s forget about the space game, it can fly. To be honest, it’s unlikely on mobiles. But anyway, why not try if you want to.

Here it is necessary to combine divination for the developer with what is boiling in his soul.

The next question is about monetization.  Here, too, there is a trend that free-to-play has captured everything. Do you see an alternative to this model here? And is it possible here from the same player with the help of the model that now exists, to pull out not these miserable $10 in ARPPU, but $30, $40, $50?

Wow, $10 is not pathetic.

In quotes, let’s say.

Obviously, there are models: there are paid games, episodic games, in-game advertising is gaining momentum very much now.

The latter has actually become a panacea for many, because to create monetization in a game where there are a lot of users, it means to squeeze users out of it one way or another, because not everyone wants to pay, and people calmly react to advertising and play the game, since the game does not require anything from them.

For small teams that have made products that gain organic traffic, in-game advertising is a great way.

It is important to understand a very simple base. Whenever people talk about monetization, everyone thinks that there are some secrets, incredible secrets of mastery, and here there is a very simple base: people have always been ready everywhere, will be ready and ready now – to pay for high-quality content. The first thing they see: that the game is done well, made for them. This is a very important incentive for them to pay. Whether to pay at the start, buying, whether to pay later when they play free-to-play.

And the second, very difficult to formalize, described in a very simple word, is a fan: people pay for the buzz. A player can be pinched as much as he wants, create monetization barriers, playwalls, and he will pay when he feels good, when he gets high.

As soon as we sat down, we start trying to reduce it to algorithms, formulas, a la the user will always pay for the gacha, the user will always pay at 10 minutes of the game – that’s all, it’s a crash. It doesn’t work that way.

But this buzz, maybe what techniques are there to strengthen it? For example, take the elements of gambling to introduce the same, what is not a buzz?

Here we are again trying to reduce everything to a formula. Of course, gambling elements are everywhere, but World of Warcraft is a pure slot machine. Initially, you go – knock-knock-knock – you got a loot, the loot that fell out is a slot machine. A good one or a bad one fell out… In any case, you are hooked on this loop of pleasure from this process. But this is not invented from the formula, it is invented by a person who has experienced, lived this high already in many games, and he can repeat it in another game.

From the formula, you can only analyze someone else’s game. And then, as soon as you went to the level of analytics in formulas, you may have lost something. The developer looks: here everything is understood, here resources cost so much money, I counted everything, now I will repeat.

And in the original, it’s stupidly just a buzz animation. People have invested a huge effort, a huge power of their understanding in making the game give a thrill only by visual and pressing, and feeling what touch is called. Unfortunately, it probably doesn’t fit into the formula.

Let’s talk about marketing. What is the right budget for marketing the game now? Plus, what stopped working in marketing, what can you tell me here?

I’m not a marketing person at all, I’m a developer, I’m always at the level where the balance numbers are spinning and the buttons are pressed.

First of all, I want to answer the question with a question. You say to lay the marketing of the game, what kind of game, what kind of game are we talking about, what budget does it have, and in general what kind of gameplay does it have?

If you go back to the formulas, there are standard formulas – let’s put at least 100% of the development budget on marketing. But this is a trap into which you can drive yourself.

Firstly, there are always realities: how much money do we have, how much we know how to spend, and how many users do we need, because we know we want to earn that much money.

These are all questions that a person usually has answers to by the time he starts marketing, they are dictated by objective reality.

As for what works, what stopped working: with the increase in the download price, of course, small budgets stopped working. You won’t buy any users for them anymore. And you sit empty, no one is playing the game. For the giants, everything, in principle, has not changed, if they have a working game, then they buy for large sums, it is washed through the game, and it keeps its economy. Kabam, due to the fact that their games are not very well monetized, live in such a model almost to zero. But for investors, this company looks attractive to some extent. Different models in this sense, but, one way or another, everything stops working further: just a stupid, frontal purchase of traffic.

That’s what I wanted to talk about. Here is the same viralka, take it. If Facebook used to be perceived as sharing, now we have come to the conclusion that sharing on Facebook does not work at all, and then what is the viralka in its current understanding?

How does Facebook sharing not work? Works. The main question here is what we expect from this sharing, what we want.

Have you seen something in your feed that calls for a mobile game? Facebook, in my opinion, has cleaned up everyone so that no one is calling anywhere anymore.

You take into account that our tapes are specific tapes. I don’t think that yours is fundamentally different from my tape. We are subscribed to people from the professional circle mostly. And if you look at the feed of an ordinary user, he normally shits games there.

But again, it all depends on what tasks we set. If Facebook, for example, has a budget for something called retargeting (this is when we return a user through advertising on Facebook), then we don’t need him to post something on Facebook, it’s enough for him to be detected so that we catch him. And we can always return it through targeted traffic purchase.

A million advantages gives us an understanding of where a person has logged in, and how he logged in. Even social networks are optional here: whether we have our own login and our own access to the user (his mailbox) is also important. There is a lot of everything and it also depends on the game.

Why do you think that there is no point in making a game tailored to a particular regional market? There are countries such as China, Japan, which have their own unique specifics, that is, what is played there, is not played, for example, in Russia. What do you think about this?

I never said it didn’t make sense. If you’re Japanese, you have to work for Japan. This is quite a way. If Russian – to Russia. But it is very important at this moment to remember what percentage of the world market is your local Russian. But we must also remember that percentage is a relative category. And in absolute numbers, you can be quite successful, even working only in the local market. Social networks, for example, show this very effectively. Plus, here is a good example of World of Tanks Blitz, which has more than a million dollars of income from Russia alone. You can earn very good money on the local market.

My statement has always been the following, if you are an outsider, then you should not try to work locally on this market, in the sense that if you are Udmurt, then it is wrong to make a game for the Chinese, you can conquer Udmurtia, then try to enter China through a Chinese publisher who will tell you that you are in Udmurt content under change the Chinese. This is a dangerous business. There are precedents. I successfully went out to Japan with the “Mysterious House”, but it’s all very non-trivial. The project was not specifically tailored for Japan, they just liked it.  We don’t understand someone else’s specifics, it’s like a foreigner will come to make a game purely for Russians, as a result, there will be matryoshka dolls fighting on balalaika. It may be funny, but it’s not clear.

Let’s talk about expansion then. You had a successful game in Russia “Mysterious House”, for example, and you chose Japan. That’s the principle by which you chose this country? And here’s another example, you didn’t have a game in Russia, but you believe in it and try to push it, for example, in the West. If such cases? Is it even real?

As for the “Mysterious House”, its success story is not systemic. I would hardly recommend his story as an example to repeat. Here it is necessary to answer from the end. If the game did not go in Russia, it can go in the West, there are such examples. And it may not go very much in Russia, but in the West it will pop.

Can’t you remember them offhand?

Russian Facebook developers have successfully lit up most of the social networks. You can list them specifically, but this is a plus or minus for everyone, because Facebook gave many of them a push. The same NEXTERS, for example, with her “Battle for the Throne”. The project simply could not physically give this jackpot in Russia, because there is no such audience in our Facebook.

Many have grown up by going there, many have grown up on mobile phones, many will grow up when they get there. In this matter, it is necessary to abandon the formula, from consistency. It is always necessary to collect statistics inside the game, and you can see in these statistics the percentage of paying users, divided by country and by language. The most logical thing is to go and watch. For example, you have Udmurtia in the first place, and Brazil in the second. So we have to go to Brazil. To try to do the right localization for this audience, to establish support, perhaps local content (just Brazil likes local content sharpened for them). And go there. In general, you sort and systematically went point by point.

The question here is important to ask what expansion is, what we mean by it, how large-scale an event it is. If you just translate it into another language, then it’s very simple, as I said, according to the list. And for large companies, there is a question of opening local representative offices, so that someone on the spot messes with the audience, with the community, so that translations are checked. And this is a big, larger issue, of a different kind, very dependent on budgets.

Can you tell me which trap countries there are? For example, I know a couple of such countries. There are many of them, especially in Asia: India, Indonesia. There are also some among the Arab ones. That is, according to downloads, it seems, and it’s worth going there, well, he goes, and then it turns out that there is no money there.

And he won’t see it. The fact is that you are now talking about countries where there is a large Internet penetration. You can also call Turkey. It was difficult for us at Astrum to get even a penny from the Turks. They didn’t play wildly actively, but they didn’t buy clothes. There was no way to force them.

If you sort the statistics correctly, you won’t see these countries, because you need to sort by paying, by the amount of money. That is, not abstractly in terms of the number of people, but how much money the country brings. Being launched to America, you will see that the Spanish-speaking population, for example, is second in money, not in quantity, in money. And at this second you are unlikely to make a mistake, because you rely on payment data. You will never see the Indonesians in second place, they don’t pay.

This is an important point. Let’s talk about the footage in mobile. How to act here at all, where to look for them? To educate from scratch or hunt, and in general, is there such a problem?

I don’t see a problem. The problem is something like a crisis, but there is no crisis with the personnel, the market is very heated, people are very active. It’s harder to find Fleshers here than unetists, everyone has defected.

There are a lot of people. If there is a lot of money, then it is necessary to hunt, of course. If there is no money, then it is necessary to educate, there is simply no choice, it is necessary to grow people inside and try to grow outside.

The whole question here is what goal is being set. Do one project? Here he has a team limit. 30 people for one project is a very large team that can already bake a lot of updates systematically. The same Supercell team does not produce. Compared to other studios on the market, which have hundreds of people on staff, they are not at all gigantic in size.

Never need to inflate. Corporations are usually inflated, there is such a system that it is profitable to breed crutches. And a company that wants to work effectively must approach the process very selectively.: try to grow the best and take the best into yourself.

And my last question. About the future. What do you think the future holds for mobile games, do you think some promising markets will shoot? And the last question, where are you personally going now, in which direction are you digging?

The question is also worth billions of dollars, because it is equivalent to guessing the trend. I already said at the conference that the next big, global trend is virtual reality. Humanity and companies have clearly turned there. Plus, this trend will not come soon. We need to start digging now, but it will come in three, five years. This is what is called the next big thing. That is, there were consoles, computers, mobile phones, that’s something there will be.

As for mobile, they will come to a state of stagnation. This is the same as a social network: there is a lot of money, many people earn it, but it is very difficult to enter the market and it is necessary to operate on the market with more money. At the same time, this gap, into which small commands leak, it will remain because it is everywhere except for consoles (where this gap was originally boarded up very tightly). And in this sense, the situation that we are witnessing now, it will not change totally, globally. The players will shuffle a little, that is, the average will die out, small and large will remain. The trend that is seen in wearable gadgets, such as watches, I don’t see any history there. I can be wrong, of course, and I will be glad to be wrong.

And why, by the way, let’s digress?

They are small, it is not convenient to play on them. The watch should be the size of a phone. If they inflate the size, as they did with mobile phone devices, then everything may change, but now I just don’t see anything there.

Well, what if it’s not a watch, but glasses?

Well, glasses, this is when Google started, for me, as a person wearing glasses, it is obvious that this is a failure.

Why? It’s a mystery to me. Why didn’t they even try to launch?

They started on the focus of a certain audience. Yes, glasses are such a thing that not everyone wants to wear in a permanent life. A watch, plus or minus, is worn by anyone in some form. And glasses are worn by a category of cripples, like me, who have poor eyesight. But this is not a mass gadget, it is unusual for a person, it is uncomfortable to manage them. Here is a mask for the virtual axis that you came to, lay down on the sofa, unbuttoned your pants, and then it’s okay, you can put on a mask and, in principle, live with it, no different than staring at the TV. Therefore, I think that it will work there, the problems with mounschsigmans will win there, the resolution will increase, the price will fall. But the glasses are not.

Even if you imagine that we forced people to carry glasses, you still won’t get much out of them, if you start displaying some intense image on them, the person will start crashing into the wall. You won’t play with glasses.

And returning to the prospects, and the question of where I am going myself. It is obvious to me that everything good is happening at the junction now. If you go back to those three platforms – social networks, mobile phones and PCs, then you need to be there, in all three. Because there is no longer enough confidence on one that you will live, survive and everything will be fine with you, it is necessary to balance between the three platforms.

Thanks! We had a very informative conversation, interesting, I think it will be useful to everyone.

The conversation was conducted by Anar Babayev