Underground Game Design #1: about game design in general
What is the difference between games and toys, what is an honest free-to-play, whether a game designer should understand monetization – you can find out about this and much more in our transcript of the first issue of the podcast “Underground Game Design“.
First, a few words about the podcast itself. It is led by a game designer (and previously a game journalist) Svyatoslav Torik. The podcast has been released more or less regularly since June last year. And chronologically, from that very first podcast, we plan to please you with its transcripts once every two weeks.
And now let’s go. The audio version of the podcast is at the very bottom of the publication.
#1 – About game design in general
Svyatoslav Torik: Hello, dear listeners!
Svyatoslav Torik: Welcome to our podcast about game design – the only (or “so far the only”) podcast about game design in Russia. As it is easy to guess, we will talk about game development from the point of view of game designers. My name is Svyatoslav Torik, I am the leading game designer of Creative Mobile [at the time of publication of the audio version of the podcast]. Sergey Gimelreich, the founder of the Ogs Work studio, is with me today.
Sergey Gimelreich: Hello everyone!
Svyatoslav Torik: Vladimir Kovtun, the leading game designer of the game “Tanks Online”, is also with us.
Vladimir Kovtun: Hello everyone!
Svyatoslav Torik: And today Alexey Rekhlov, an external producer of a bunch of Creative Mobile studio projects, will tell us about game design.
Alexey Rekhlov: Hello!
Svyatoslav Torik: And I would like to start with the history of the issue. Alexey, are you ready to tell me who started doing this game design?
Alexey Rekhlov: In fact, it’s hard to say who started studying first. The first game designers appeared with the advent of the game industry, and even before it appeared. That is, it is the early 1970s. And the people who created games at that time were united in one person: they were programmers, game designers, artists, sound engineers, and all at once. It’s just that then they all didn’t call themselves game designers yet.
Svyatoslav Torik: Is it correct to say that game designers are the same or almost the same people who were engaged in the design of board games, card games – that is, those games that were not connected with computers, but were based on something that we call games?
Alexey Rekhlov: Not necessarily. Some of them undoubtedly became such a little later. The very first game designers were programmers who created the first games. If they created something else at the same time, they could combine all these qualities. But usually it was just the programmer who came up with the game. He solved the issues related to game design himself. Where we will have what elements, for what we will earn points, how we will play it in general. Later, when the industry came out of garages and apartments, and people started making money from games, the first “game designers” were people who either grew out of this industry or came from related industries. That is, those who created board games or something else.
Svyatoslav Torik: I studied the history of several people who are now considered legends and founding fathers. Most of them really started alone. But today they are not directly engaged in game design. They don’t write design documents. They are studio directors or creative directors. But, nevertheless, they give some kind of their own experience. Or, in your opinion, is it no longer relevant, and the experience of people who designed games in the 80s is worthless today?
Alexey Rekhlov: It cannot be said that their experience is worthless. It may be outdated. And it’s not really applicable directly if they haven’t been doing it for a long time. But despite the fact that some of them have retired, the other part, holding high positions, still has an impact on the creation of their products. And the fact that they do not write design documents themselves does not mean that they do not know and do not teach how to write them.
Svyatoslav Torik: OK, we really can’t know so directly what the development cycle looks like in large companies where the directors are the same people from the 80s. Alexey, what is a game in general? Because we say “game”, “game”, but some mean by this an adventure like Myst, calm, non-aggressive, and others – “Tetris” or hardcore online shooter. What is a game?
Alexey Rekhlov: There is no exact definition of the game. Experts – specialists, psychologists, game designers – can’t say exactly what it is. I will try to give my definition. A game is any unproductive activity that is aimed at gaining some kind of experience. It can be either a positive experience or a negative experience. The main thing is that the player should receive some knowledge, skills, abilities, feedback and so on from the process. The player – the person who plays the game- must influence the game itself. This is the first. And second, no less important – the player must follow certain existing rules and have a goal. If there is no goal or the player invents this goal himself, then this is no longer a game, but a toy. Even now, there are games on PC, consoles, and mobile phones, and there are toys. There is no goal for the player, he himself has to choose what to do. Here is my opinion in brief. I repeat, no one can give an exact definition, including me.
Svyatoslav Torik: Do I understand you correctly that it is necessary to divide all the products of our industry into “games” in which the player gets experience, feedback and somehow affects the process; and “toys”, such as, say, Minecraft, or aimless match-3, or PvP any games?
Alexey Rekhlov: In PvP there is a goal – to kill the enemy.
Svyatoslav Torik: Well, this is a temporary goal. Aren’t we talking about a meta-game?
Alexey Rekhlov: No, it’s not necessarily a meta-game. If there are a bunch of cubes, then this is a toy. If you need to put a turret out of these cubes, then this is already a game.
Svyatoslav Torik: If there is a team that needs to be sent against the opposing team to get gold, but there is no big goal, is it a game or a toy?
Alexey Rekhlov: There is a goal – we must get gold! (Laughs).
Svyatoslav Torik: If someone has come up with a goal for you, then this is a game. If he is his own toy.
Alexey Rekhlov: Absolutely right. If the game does not provide goals, then it is not a game. But if there are goals, then this is a game. The difference between a game and a toy is the presence of a goal.
Svyatoslav Torik: That is, we take any toy, as the Chinese like, fasten 500 quests to it and get the game?
Alexey Rekhlov: In principle, yes.
Svyatoslav Torik: I see. The Chinese make games out of toys. Since we started talking about mobile games, tell us what are the features of mobile game design, how are mobile games made, unlike PC games and console games?
Alexey Rekhlov: There are no fundamental differences, except that it is necessary to constantly think about how the product we are going to make will be monetized, how it will make money. If it’s a free-to-play game. And if we are not making a free-to-play game, then all the rules remain the same. Therefore, there is currently a big problem in the market that not all companies understand how the free-to-play model works at all, and they make strange products designed for the fact that players will pay them for something unclear. Some go too far in one direction, that is, they make too rigid monetization, killing the gameplay. Others bend the stick in the other direction – they make it so that players can play their game for free. This is the only difference – you need to think about monetization, and not just about the gameplay. And if we make a premium game, then we think mainly only about the gameplay and the experience that the player will get.
Svyatoslav Torik: What is more honest from the player’s point of view? On the one hand, a player who gets all these fritupley psychological “hooks” is normal, comfortable. He may not really understand that he is being hooked on this. And on the other hand, a person who gets a purely PC experience may feel uncomfortable playing mobile games. What do you think?Alexey Rekhlov: I didn’t quite understand the question. How is it right or how is it more honest? (Laughs).
Svyatoslav Torik: Okay, although for me it’s the same thing. How is it more honest?
Alexey Rekhlov: It is more honest to inform the player that you are going to monetize him. (Laughs). But this is wrong from the point of view of the economic model. Either you do fair play and then make it premium, or you do free-to-play. And there may be not entirely honest mechanics present. That is, honesty is a very conditional limiter. If we offer a player some gadget in the game, it does not mean that we are deceiving him. He, in principle, understands that he will have to pay money. They don’t make him pay. This, from my point of view, is honest monetization. We do not deceive anyone, although we use the psychological characteristics of people. But casinos use the same thing – and they are not considered dishonest, are they?
Svyatoslav Torik: I completely agree with you. Not so long ago, I studied the issue of transparency and came to the conclusion that, in principle, people don’t care whether all the conditions of the game are transparent or not. That is, for example, there is some match-3 type of Candy Crush, in which the player sees only the number of moves, but does not know how the candies fall out and what will happen if he does so and so, what tools he has, except those that he can for money buy. And, say, I saw another game – Marvel Puzzle Quest, which is also a free-play, also match-3. But there the player has absolutely all the information, he sees completely the goals and tools, and in this example I see that for me, as a player accustomed to PC games, it is more familiar when everything is visible. But at the same time, I see that Marvel Puzzle Quest has 10 million installations, and Candy Crush has over 50. Actually, this is such a comment on the topic of transparency. The conclusion is that there can be no honest free-to-play.
Alexey Rekhlov: I would say, depending on what an honest free-to-play is. Because there are completely dishonest methods. For example, we do not inform the player that we want to withdraw money from him. Or that it will cost a certain amount of money, and we force the player to make some kind of commitment. From my point of view, CSR is not quite honestly made. This is especially true of the boss battle, when they tell us if you agree to chase me so that I lose my car to you, and after that they tell us that you can’t win if you don’t buy super-nitro for real money.
Svyatoslav Torik: So they first give you a challenge, and then they put you in front of the fact that you won’t pass it?
Alexey Rekhlov: Absolutely right. Put a challenge – defeat the boss and get his car. But you have to pay so much premium for this. You pay premium and get into a race with the boss. And then they tell you that your chances of winning are extremely low if you don’t buy nitro. And super-nitro is bought only for real money. This, from my point of view, is unfair monetization.
Svyatoslav Torik: OK, then we have Sergey’s favorite question. Are game design and monetization friends or enemies?
Alexey Rekhlov: This is a question for whom now?
Sergey Gimelreich: Alexey, I would like to hear from you the answer to the question. Because holivars on the topic of “Free-to-play and game design” have been conducted for more than the first day in our chat. There are two cohorts of game designers: some argue that a game designer is not at all obliged to delve into the essence of monetization and figure out how the game will be monetized; others, to which I belong, believe that if you are developing a free-to-play game, then you are obliged to delve into the ways of monetization.
Alexey Rekhlov: I completely agree with you. If a designer works on a free-duplex project, then he must understand monetization, the systems that are necessary for this, and competently integrate any means, whether it is direct monetization through in-app purchases or monetization through advertising. If he does not like doing this, he believes that it is wrong for some reason, then let him go to another project or to another company where a non-free-to-play product is being developed.
Svyatoslav Torik: Well, can it be that a game designer is engaged in a free-to-play project, but simply does not engage in monetization?
Alexey Rekhlov: This can happen if this project is big enough and the team is big enough. And this is not the only game designer and not even one of the three game designers. Here I am sure that in companies like Wargaming, when a huge number of people are working on a product, then some of the people who are directly involved in the UI or gameplay are not obliged to understand the free-to-play model. But if it is a small company where one, two, three game designers are working on a free-to-play project, then they are obliged to understand this. Otherwise, there will be not very pleasant moments by the end of the game development.
Svyatoslav Torik: The next question is very simple. How to become a game designer? Alexey, did you become a game designer fifteen years ago?
Alexey Rekhlov: Only eleven! (Laughs).
Svyatoslav Torik: What brought you to game design?
Alexey Rekhlov: It’s a long story. My acquaintance with electronic entertainment began in deep childhood. I was about five years old when the first computer appeared at home – it was the Soviet Spectrum diversification. There weren’t a lot of games there, I liked them, but it seemed that they could be changed, that something was wrong with them. It was the 85th year. Then computer technologies developed, and then I switched to a real Spectrum, and from it to 8080. Then on 8088, this is such an upgraded 8086, then there was a short break, and immediately the 386th processor. When I was 88, we tried to write games in Pascal, because we didn’t have C yet. Or we didn’t know about him. In my opinion, he appeared later. We made the first games of the “tic-tac-toe” type. I also made a car that goes, and I had to press the key in time for the bullet to fly out and blow it up. Moreover, all this was done in pseudo-graphics, because I did not know how to work with graphics.
Sergey Gimelreich: Alexey, I think we can accelerate, otherwise we will be moving from pseudo-graphics to three-dimensional graphics and shaders for a very, very long time!
Vladimir Kovtun: 12 years old.
Sergey Gimelreich: I was just thinking, Alexey’s path to game designers was through programming. Does this mean that in order to become a game designer, you need to try the basics of software development?
Alexey Rekhlov: It seems to me that this may help, but it is not necessary. I’m afraid that most of the people who started at the same time as me had to know programming. Because there were not so many like-minded people for the simple reason that there were few computers. In fact, a lot of people come to game design from where. Let’s get back to me. For the next 16 years, until 2004, I didn’t really do game design, there were all sorts of pen tests. After graduating from university in 2002, I was generally engaged in database programming.
Svyatoslav Torik: What was your specialty?
Alexey Rekhlov: I am an automation engineer for the chemical and technological industry and the timber industry.
Sergey Gimelreich: Did it help you, by the way, in becoming a game designer?
Alexey Rekhlov: It helped in some way. And continues to help. Because a large number of in-game systems are very similar to automation systems. It doesn’t matter what exactly to automate. There’s a whole set of rules, methodologies, and so on that apply to anything.
Sergey Gimelreich: Lesh, do you remember, there was such an object – TRIZ. It is also very useful for game designers. For some reason, many people miss it.
Svyatoslav Torik: Theory and solution of inventive tasks?
Sergey Gimelreich: That’s right. In general, do I understand correctly that the engineering profession has a positive effect when becoming a game designer?
Alexey Rekhlov: It puts the brain in order, from my point of view. It organizes the chaos of thoughts.
Sergey Gimelreich: Vladimir, by the way, do you have a technical education?
Vladimir Kovtun: No, I am a philologist – a teacher of Russian language and literature.
Sergey Gimelreich: And how does humanitarian education affect the role of a game designer?
Vladimir Kovtun: Wonderful. From my point of view, firstly, it affects the ability to find a common language with everyone. If you work in a team, this is very important. Especially if you work with some external people that you don’t see every day – freelancers, for example. And secondly, it affects the quality of written documentation.
Sergey Gimelreich: Not always. I have seen game designer “canvases” that are very similar to prose. And quite often, humanitarian education has a negative impact. But this, of course, is not about you!
Vladimir Kovtun: Thanks to my humanitarian mindset, I do not paint huge canvases, but I am able to express my thoughts briefly and clearly. Today I had a wonderful case. They came to me from QA and said: “Listen, here you wrote briefly. Programmers may understand, but we don’t understand what you meant. Explain in more detail.” I wrote it very abstractly, just in a way that programmers won’t understand.
Sergey Gimelreich: I’m already wondering what you described in such complex terms that the engineers couldn’t understand.
Vladimir Kovtun: No terms. I just found a common language with programmers. I can express to them in one line what they will understand. Because we already have the experience of this communication in this language.
Sergey Gimelreich: Object-oriented method of communication.
Vladimir Kovtun: Practically yes, it is.
Sergey Gimelreich: But we have moved away from the topic of Alexey Rekhlov becoming a game designer.
Alexey Rekhlov: Yes. From 2002 to 2004, we assembled a mini-team, which included Sergey Panfilov, one of the co-founders and owners of Creative Mobile. And we did our MMORPG with blackjack and whores.
Svyatoslav Torik: Is it really about the post-apocalypse?
Alexey Rekhlov: No, we didn’t do Fallout Online, we had an alternative post-apocalypse! That is, there were three different races, and it was a post-apocalypse before the advent of humanity.
Svyatoslav Torik: I mean, a post-Dinosaurus post-apocalypse?
Alexey Rekhlov: Before the collapse of Atlantis. And at that time there were three races: flyers, Atlanteans and humans.
Sergey Gimelreich: Generally speaking, this is a very risky setting. Especially for MMORPGs.
Alexey Rekhlov: Yes, we also think so now. (Laughs). At that time we were not in the gaming industry, we were making a game for ourselves. In parallel, several small technological projects, such as online points and online chess, were filed down. They worked and were even popular. No one thought about monetization, these projects were made in order to work out technologies. But at some point, everyone matured, and the team began to slowly crumble. Everyone found a cool job – someone in the gaming industry, someone in the near-gaming industry, someone not in the gaming industry at all. My work at that moment became quite boring, because during this time, everything that could be learned – I learned what could be done – I did. And, accordingly, I started looking for a job and found it.
Sergey Gimelreich: Did you just post your resume on DTF and find a job?
Alexey Rekhlov: I didn’t even post my resume there. There were just a lot of people looking for someone for themselves, and I wrote to everyone, take me, take me, I can do this and that.
Sergey Gimelreich: Do I understand correctly that this is also such a kind of case for novice game designers? Write to everyone!
Alexey Rekhlov: If there are contacts to write to, then write to everyone! It won’t get any worse, at least.
Sergey Gimelreich: In the end, where did you get a job?
Alexey Rekhlov: I got a job in a small company that was located in St. Petersburg and was called, in my opinion, Digital Fun Studio. I worked there for three months, after which it was successfully closed.
Sergey Gimelreich: I got settled in time!
Alexey Rekhlov: As it turned out later, they already knew that they would close.
Sergey Gimelreich: Then why, excuse me, did they take you?
Alexey Rekhlov: I don’t know! But it’s good that they took it, because Creat Studios bought the leftovers from this studio. That’s how I got into the “big” industry.
Svyatoslav Torik: By the way, how many people were there then?
Alexey Rekhlov: It was such a peak moment, because there were a lot of people who did not belong to the gaming industry. Creat was still half engaged in the production of three-dimensional commercials for foreign games, and was just starting to develop its own. I came to the company’s second game, American Chopper.
Svyatoslav Torik: And what did you do there? I understand that the studio outsourced something, and you came and immediately got into game design?
Alexey Rekhlov: No. In fact, when I arrived, the studio had already released its first successful project, and on consoles. It was Smash Cars. And I have come to the completion of the first American Chopper. I came in September, and the release was expected in November. As a result, it took place in December. By the time I arrived, you can say there was nothing, because until that moment they were making another game, under license. It was a Harley Davidson for Activision, but Activision at some point said, you know, we have legal problems with Harleys here, and now let’s make a game under the license of American Chopper. And as a result, in the remaining time, the game had to be converted from Harley Davidson to American Chopper and from open roads to translate the action into cute little towns.
Svyatoslav Torik: What position did you come to?
Alexey Rekhlov: I came to a very incomprehensible position, in fact. Officially called a game designer, but I was engaged in programming game logic in an internal language that was written by senior comrades.
Svyatoslav Torik: That is, what is now called a gameplay programmer in foreign job exchanges.
Alexey Rekhlov: Perhaps. Although, probably, there is more programming there after all. There was what is called “scripting” in Russia. There is some simple language in which the main events are described, objects are inserted, and so on. At the same time, the logic itself is not written. The logic is written by programmers.
Svyatoslav Torik: Roughly speaking, were you engaged in content?
Alexey Rekhlov: Sort of. Again, this is not the same as modern content, where you have an editor, where you put everything and prescribed something. You take it with pens, open a file, enter variables there, name methods, objects there, save events, and so on.
Svyatoslav Torik: You say it was 11 years ago, 2004. How many Russian studios then outsourced to the West, not to mention console games for Activision?
Alexey Rekhlov: At least two more studios in St. Petersburg, known to me at that time. These are Driver-Inter and Saber Interactive.
Svyatoslav Torik: Let’s get back to you and your destiny-the destiny that brought you to our podcast.
Alexey Rekhlov: And what exactly? There are still 11 years! OK, 8 years old!
Sergey Gimelreich: This podcast should have been called “Rekhlov and his path to game design” from the very beginning.
Svyatoslav Torik: Good. Since this is difficult, let’s go back to the questions about game design. We have a set of abstract things.
Sergey Gimelreich: Yes, our wonderful colleague Ilya Tumenko wrote a huge cheat sheet.
Svyatoslav Torik: Let’s start with the position. Your position implies reviewing a whole lot of projects. Is it so?
Alexey Rekhlov: Yes, it is. At the moment, about once a week, if we are not going somewhere and everyone has not gone on vacation, we look at a certain number of projects for the publication that come to us in Creative Mobile, give some feedback and determine what and with whom we are interested in working, and with whom we are not.
Svyatoslav Torik: What percentage is eliminated?
Alexey Rekhlov: It’s hard to say. 99%?
Svyatoslav Torik: If in absolute numbers, how many come in a week?
Alexey Rekhlov: The number varies greatly, but I have never seen less than 8. And more than 30, probably, too.
Svyatoslav Torik: Do you look through them with round knocks?
Alexey Rekhlov: No, I watch some videos and don’t even put them on myself.
Svyatoslav Torik: Do I understand correctly that there is a large percentage of projects that it makes no sense to even watch?
Alexey Rekhlov: Yes, that’s right. Some projects just don’t make sense to watch, because we launch the video that is attached, and we understand that we don’t know how to monetize it, we don’t even know how it can be shown to someone in this form. I just don’t look any further. Some projects come without video. Most of them. And then the same thing happens in the first few minutes when I launch the game, poke at it in every possible way, realize that I don’t understand how to play it, and write that I didn’t understand how to play.
Svyatoslav Torik: Are you sending some feedback to developers? Or are you just writing that you didn’t understand anything, doesn’t fit?
Alexey Rekhlov: Projects don’t come to me. They come to our game publishing department. And then they are sent to everyone. And everyone writes their feedback, and then these projects are discussed. And then there is a consolidated response. That is, I do not wrap up projects alone.
Svyatoslav Torik: Of course, you have a whole council on indie projects there.
Alexey Rekhlov: Yes, we have a Coordination Board there, which consists of 6 people.
Svyatoslav Torik: And what happens next with the project that was lucky and you all liked it or most of you liked it?
Alexey Rekhlov: Then one of the producers takes it.
Sergey Gimelreich: As I understand it, the project gets some responsible person, and then it interacts with the developers.
Alexey Rekhlov: Absolutely right. Then there is a conversation with developers, opportunities for cooperation are determined. If everyone is satisfied and everything is agreed, all the necessary documents are signed, and direct work with developers is already underway. We give feedback on the gameplay, explain what needs to be done so that the game can be released to the market – in general, all the necessary tips. When the product is ready, we help to arrange all the necessary materials for publication on the market, launch all possible programs related to publishing, when it is necessary to push the product to the top. Etc.
Sergey Gimelreich: I just have a fairly rich experience of communicating with publishers. And I am always concerned about the issue first of all as a developer. Are you currently giving any funds to finalize the product? And if so, under what conditions? I think that a lot of indie developers or just development studios are interested in this question.
Alexey Rekhlov: Some time ago we gave money. Now we have so many people willing to publish through us that we have closed this funding program. Because a large number of developers are ready…
Sergey Gimelreich: …it is in the kitchen itself to finish this unfortunate product in order to get them from afar.
Alexey Rekhlov: Yes, that’s right.
Sergey Gimelreich: Then the question is: do I understand correctly that there are fewer indie developers on the market now than there were before, and mostly there are now developers who have people with non-core money somewhere behind their backs? And studios that have earned money on outsourcing of some kind?
Alexey Rekhlov: I don’t think there is less indie. Because the number of indie-class products has not changed. But there really are more products with different teams that came from a different direction, or with people who received non-core or even some kind of specialized funding, and make products. There are more medium and large developers. Indie has not decreased – at least over the past year. I haven’t worked with teams before, so it’s hard for me to speak.
Svyatoslav Torik: To people who come with experience from the same PC games, browser, casual and offer you a techno demo, you say that there are 100500 million of this junk on the market, come up with something original?
Alexey Rekhlov: No, we never say that. And even, I would say, I never even think so. I rather start more from a business idea. From the business in terms of whether it is possible to make money from it or not.
Svyatoslav Torik: People bring a clone stripped from Candy Crush and say, well, we know that this game is successful, and we made the same one.
Alexey Rekhlov: If it’s a really cool Candy Crush clone, then maybe we’ll take it. Although we are not currently engaged in publishing casual projects. If someone had come to us with a good clone of Clash of Clans, we would have taken it too. There is still a chance to make money there, even if it’s not super-big, but there are some. But often people come to us with projects that I don’t even know how to monetize from the point of view of freeplay. For example, one of the last projects that came to us is a perfectly made cool adventure game that you can play and have fun. But I have no idea how to monetize it. This is a classic cool adventure game!
Sergey Gimelreich: Since they started talking about the publishing house, how, in your opinion, does the adventure game and the premium segment in general have a life?
Alexey Rekhlov: The premium segment clearly has a life, and Earn to Die proves it.
Sergey Gimelreich: To be honest, I don’t really believe that projects that come out in the premium segment somehow pay off if there isn’t some absolutely world-famous, major franchise of some kind.
Alexey Rekhlov: So – Earn to Die!
Svyatoslav Torik: No, there are all sorts of critically acclaimed releases like Monument Valley that just…
Sergey Gimelreich: After all, in my opinion, the press does not have such a strong impact on profits. Even if you take the same Touch Arcade, for example, and Pocket Gamer.
Svyatoslav Torik: I’m not talking about specialized resources. I’m talking about Forbes or TV series like House of Cards. As soon as Monument Valley lit up there, she immediately started racing.
Sergey Gimelreich: Yes, this is an interesting way of promotion.
Svyatoslav Torik: It was the people who made the original, cool, beautiful game that I just passed the other day, that’s why I’m talking about it. And, in principle, this also includes the same Earn to Die, which Alexey spoke about, and which, in fact, has such a long tail already. This is their fifth or sixth release in this genre, just on mobile phones, in my opinion, only two games were released.
Alexey Rekhlov: Yes, and she feels quite well in the top-grossing in the States.
Sergey Gimelreich: I don’t know. For the sake of interest, I tracked the grossing of premium projects that do not have a specific name, and noticed that the payback is small. Therefore, it is easier to make money on a flash drive ported to a mobile. The same Earn to Die is simple. This is not an adventure game that costs a year of development and a lot of money.
Alexey Rekhlov: They had the 16th place in the ranking in the top grossing of the USA. So I think they have earned well.
Sergey Gimelreich: Okay, what are we talking about other people’s money here… Vladimir, do you have any question related to publishing?
Vladimir Kovtun: How much does the popularity of the publisher itself affect within the framework of publishing, not from the point of view of the gaming press, but from the point of view of the user? Will people go to play a game from a well-known publisher, even if it is poorly made.
Alexey Rekhlov: There is such a difficult question here. It can be divided into two parts. The first part – will the name of the publisher play a role in the fact that players download the game? Probably not. Most mobile players are not aware of what mobile publishers are. But there is another part. If this publisher has a large number of projects, and a certain number of projects that are popular and liked by players, then both stores have a button “More from this publisher”. And here it works.
Svyatoslav Torik: There is a fashion – to put the logo of the company on the icon of the game. It works, don’t you know?
Alexey Rekhlov: I don’t know. Not for me. (Laughs).
Sergey Gimelreich: In my opinion, it looks more like some kind of show-off. Let’s put a beautiful symbol in the corner, and it will mean that these are our games.
Svyatoslav Torik: Can you imagine, the top 10 free games open, and there are 3-4 icons with the same logo.
Sergey Gimelreich: For me, this is often a signal that it is not worth downloading this game, because I have already seen something similar. I won’t name a company that I try to ignore.
Alexey Rekhlov: I don’t know about the players themselves, but I make my choice as follows: I go to the store and view the new. I click, I look at the pictures. I like the pictures – I download them. I don’t like the pictures – I don’t download them. The first choice is the icon, the second is the name, the third is the pictures. All.
Sergey Gimelreich: Similarly. Sometimes I don’t even read the description of the game.
Svyatoslav Torik: Nevertheless, it is in the text that the description of mechanics often lies, after which you understand that no, I will not play this.
Alexey Rekhlov: And it’s faster for me not to read, but to download and then run!
Sergey Gimelreich: Quite often you just flip through the pictures. If you meet something interesting, you download it. No, you skip. Here I have exactly the same choice.
Svyatoslav Torik: Alexey, but do you have some minimum threshold of time during which you watch the game without fail?
Alexey Rekhlov: When did you come to the publication? No. If I have started a game and I see that it cannot be played, I close it.
Svyatoslav Torik: There is some kind of checklist: what to check, what to see?
Alexey Rekhlov: There is no specific checklist, I act on a whim. The first thing I look at is how attractive the game is from the user’s point of view. If it repels, then this is a minus to the game. Then I watch how it is played. If you can’t play, then I usually don’t look further. If you can play, then I’m watching monetization. If it’s not there, then I’m thinking how to screw it. And after that, if monetization is built-in, then I make some kind of assessment, if not, then conclusions. I’m writing a report. That’s it. If the game is good and hooked, then I can play it longer. But this rarely happens.
Vladimir Kovtun: Alexey, there is a question about the current situation on the market. Firstly, it is obvious that a huge number of clones are appearing on the market. Secondly, I wonder what trends have emerged over the past one and a half to two years? Where is the gaming industry heading? Where the efforts of major studios are directed now.
Alexey Rekhlov: Let’s start from the end. The efforts of large studios are aimed at creating more serious products. That is, these are middle core and hard core games. At least the tops of grossings show that these products create an audience for a long time and are able to earn enough money to feed such large studios.
Sergey Gimelreich: Do I understand correctly that there is a certain stagnation in grossing right now? Nothing has changed in the last six months. They make clones – battlers, SoS, Candy Crush. Although there are few of the latter. In general, there is no one else besides King.
Alexey Rekhlov: They are still being produced to this day, these match-3. But they don’t even get into the top 200 in grossing.
Sergey Gimelreich: So I understood correctly, everyone is trying to make games in the direction of midcore? And not to create some unique genres, but to take what has shown itself well and make money?
Alexey Rekhlov: Yes. But as practice shows, the flow is large, and few of them get out.
Sergey Gimelreich: And then where did the interest in idlers come from?
Alexey Rekhlov: Actually, he was a long time ago.
Sergey Gimelreich: That is, it’s just overdue. Tap Titans, which I consider a “black swan”, took off, and everyone decided that idlers are a trend.
Alexey Rekhlov: If you look at it, idlers were popular both two years ago and five years ago. A huge number of people stuck to them. But it was unclear how to monetize them. Once about a month, an idler came out, in which it was possible to sleep…
Sergey Gimelreich: I still don’t understand how to monetize it, except for advertising.
Alexey Rekhlov: It’s not clear to me either. I once suggested doing an idler when we were thinking about what projects we would do. But it didn’t work out. We started cooperation with one of the St. Petersburg companies, but somehow they could not quickly do what we needed, and we closed this case. And there were no resources of their own. So maybe we could have shot earlier than Tap Titans!
Svyatoslav Torik: I wanted to add on the topic of idler monetization. I do not know how many times I threw into our game designer chat links to a lecture by Anthony Pecorella, who produced AdVenture Capitalist and who talked about the income of idlers on Kongregate. And all the numbers are there, it’s clear how idlers are monetized.
Sergey Gimelreich: It often happens that some genre appears, takes off quickly, like the same idlers. And there is an opinion that money in this case is not in a pure genre, but at the intersection of genres. Alexey, do you believe that if you combine a buttler or match-3 with an idler, you will get a really interesting concept from the point of view of monetization?
Alexey Rekhlov: It seems to me that monetization is not in core gameplay at all, but in the binding of this gameplay. That is, if this mixture of genres will be pleasant to play, and it will be quite zombifying, restraining, then with a competent meta-game we will get good monetization. It seems to me that games without strapping, no matter how enticing they may be, are not particularly monetized. I don’t know any examples.
Sergey Gimelreich: So before creating a free-to-play game, you need to come up with some kind of business model? And then integrate gameplay into it?
Alexey Rekhlov: Rather, after all, together. That is, it is necessary to create gameplay taking into account the monetization system in this game. If we are going to monetize on the display of advertising, then we need to make a large number of places where it is profitable for the player to watch this advertisement. And it should not annoy, but give additional bonuses. Looked – got an acceleration, looked – got an extra life.
Sergey Gimelreich: Recently, our mutual colleague laid out a toy. It was a football runner. I even got stuck, although I don’t really like runners. There was an unpleasant moment there just about advertising. When you lose, they stick ads right in your face. it seems to me that this is not the best way to monetize.
Alexey Rekhlov: It’s still better to offer the player.
Sergey Gimelreich: Yes, I’m thinking about that now. Although there are very good examples. The same Rovio, when doing Retry, perfectly integrated advertising. In order to fix the key points, it was necessary to watch the video. This, I think, is what you need to contribute to the golden fund of free-to-play monetization.
Svyatoslav Torik: I would like to ask questions following the lectures that Alexey gave. A question about the methods of game design, or rather, about core loop. Unfortunately, I don’t really understand what Ilya is talking about… He formulated the question like this: “A universal rule or an overrated principle that worked in some games, but is poorly applicable to others?”.
Alexey Rekhlov: Apparently, he meant that what works well in one game will not necessarily work well in another. The idea that if some monetization element works in one game, then why not move it to another game. Or not?Sergey Gimelreich: It doesn’t always work out that way, by the way.
Svyatoslav Torik: Then another question. There is such a well-known principle in professional game design as the fuuu factor. Wooga told about this factor using the example of Jelly Splash. The bottom line is that we lead the player in such a way that when he loses, there is only a little bit left to win. Several times the player loses like that, and then pays the money, and victory! And this almost victory is more about monetization, that is, about the motivation of the player to pay and still win, or is it such a feature of game design, when the player is held on a string, as it were, that pull up a little, and you will pass where you need to.
Alexey Rekhlov: This is a difficult question for me for the simple reason that I haven’t played Jelly Splash.
Sergey Gimelreich: This mechanics is well reflected in the King games or in the Best Fiends project.
Alexey Rekhlov: From my point of view, there is no prediction in Best Fiends. Because the same level I can, playing equally well, either pass in a short number of moves, or not pass. I have had attempts when 30 moves are given, for which you need to achieve a result. In 30 moves, I hardly get where I need to. Then I play the next session. The pre-defined field is pre-defined for them. The first moves I make are the same, optimal, as I believe. But completely different things fall out, and I complete the level in 15 moves. This is random.
Sergey Gimelreich: I disagree. I have played a lot of Best Fiends, and I will say that they have well-balanced levels. Not all, but very many. And it’s done right there so that you literally complete the level on the last moves. And this small, small step to the completion of the level, in my opinion, plays a role not only monetizing, but also involving. For me, there has always been a challenge, when I have a small step left, but I don’t have time. And I wanted to play this level again and again and again. And I was wasting energy. And this led, of course, to the desire to zadonatit. So it’s about monetization and gameplay.
Alexey Rekhlov: Still, it seems to me that this is a psychological part of a person. He remembers the moments when it was difficult for him to achieve something, when he hardly achieved it. And if this is a game designer, then he thinks that it was so specially “redesigned”.
Sergey Gimelreich: I am absolutely sure that King’s projects are built just taking into account this small border that needs to be crossed.
Svyatoslav Torik: It is well known that the mechanics of match-3 are laid in such a way that a very low percentage of attempts leads to victory. The question is, is there a percentage of attempts that does not frustrate the player yet, but still makes him a challenge?
Alexey Rekhlov: I think it’s not the percentage that matters in this case. What matters is the player’s sense of whether he can do it or not. If it seems to the player that he just didn’t have enough, that just a little more, and he will do it, then it won’t frustrate him. And if he sees that oh, I can’t achieve this in any way, then he will be frustrated.
Sergey Gimelreich: This line is very thin, ephemeral. It seems to me that it is very difficult to determine it without neuro-measurements of the game.
Alexey Rekhlov: Without measurements, of course, it is impossible. Without psychological analysis, too. The player should see it the way we show it to him. That is, it should seem to him that only a few moves were missing – where in fact it would have taken another 20 moves. The main thing is feelings, not real indicators.
Svyatoslav Torik: But how many times can you do this? I’m playing the same match-3, and I see that I didn’t have enough 2 moves. And so 10 times in a row. Won’t I get the feeling that I’m being pricked somewhere?
Alexey Rekhlov: I don’t know. (Laughs). I would have it if I started to make sure that there is no random. But in fact, they all have a real random.
Sergey Gimelreich: King definitely doesn’t have a random house there.
Alexey Rekhlov: King was asked officially. There was even some kind of process. And they said that everything is random.
Sergey Gimelreich: So, this is some kind of professional narrative, when you invent a story for yourself, that the game designer laid this topic, that these sweets fall out… By the way, it looks something like a casino. When people begin to believe that here, at this machine, you pull the lever for some time, and a certain combination will fall out. And in my case, this belief was quite deep. Because I played King games and in some of the levels that I tried to pass a hundred times, I noticed that the mechanics there made it so that… Remember, there are tasks where you need to break the ice. And, accordingly, the elements should explode next to it. Both the elements I needed and the combinations I could put together were always above or around that. There was a real impression that it was rigged. And I counted the number of drop-down combinations that were on top, in relation to the number of combinations that I could collect to break this ice, and it turned out that almost 90% of the time I was given losing combinations to take away my moves. I don’t really believe that King is honest in his answers.
Alexey Rekhlov: On the other hand, if it turned out to be true, they would have been checked…
Sergey Gimelreich: I don’t think anyone will check them. Because, as far as I understand, European legislation does not yet prohibit companies from implementing their own special mechanics. That is, it is not regulated in any way, so they can fully do as they see fit and say something completely different.
Alexey Rekhlov: Well, maybe. I just don’t believe in theory…
Sergey Gimelreich: Conspiracies? From the point of view of game dev, I still believe in it! Do you remember this process in Japan, which was connected with gacha and with the sale of a card that constantly postponed the chance of a drop? That is, there was a rare card in a large set, and it was believed that if you bought many sets at once, this card would fall out with a high probability. But this probability was delayed until the last. That is, until the players bought up the entire pool of cards that were in limited quantities, this card simply did not fall out. And then there was a scandal on this topic. And in Japan, it was legally forbidden to adjust the random.
Svyatoslav Torik: This should be discussed with those people who are directly involved in match-3. Thank you, Alexey, for sharing your story with us!
Sergey Gimelreich: From the very bobbins. From the origins, you can say. In particular, he devoted us to the history of the development of computer technology in the post-Soviet space.
Alexey Rekhlov: I’ve just started!
Sergey Gimelreich: In the following podcasts we will tell you how Alexey mastered other samples of computer equipment.
Svyatoslav Torik: This is the end of our first podcast release. Thank you all!
